Douglas horse tram set for Wales?

With the auction of six surplus tramcars from the Douglas Bay Horse Tramway imminent, this development continues to dominate the news as a number of interested parties come forward to inspect the trams and consider potential options for their future. It has come to light that the Welshpool & Llanfair Light Railway have shown interest in a tram with bulkhead crossbench car 37 believed to be their first choice.

Representatives of the railway paid a visit to Douglas on 16th August, when they were shown around Strathallan Depot and allowed to view the six trams being offered for sale. If they make a successful bid, that would only be one hurdle overcome, as permission would need to be granted by the relevant authorities to release the car from the Isle of Man and ship it to mainland Britain. If this happens, 37 would presumably be destined for operation on the railway, perhaps as a carriage behind steam locomotives as after all, a horse tram and a railway carriage are not all that different in design and purpose. This would entail re-gauging the tram, which has met with vocal opposition from the Manx Electric Railway Society who refer to it as ‘butchering’ it. Of course, many preserved trams have been converted to run on a different gauge of track over the years but this particular case is likely to be controversial, especially as so few trams have ever left the island and be re-homed elsewhere.

It is believed that other groups were also escorted around the depot on the same date, but it has not been revealed who they were and whether anyone else has shown serious interest in acquiring any of the other cars. Hopefully none of the trams will end up being broken up; indeed considering their age and relatively small size, housing them should be relatively straightforward compared to the many Blackpool trams which were successfully re-homed not so many years ago (albeit with some of them subsequently going back home!), and of course in this case the number of trams being offered up for grabs is considerably less.

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19 Responses to Douglas horse tram set for Wales?

  1. Phil Caine says:

    This is no doubt the largest collection of original horse trams in the world, it should be kept intact. I have heard a rumour that at least one perspective buyer intends to dump a horse tram in a garden as summerhouse.

  2. Nigel Pennick says:

    If this tram is otherwise to be scrapped, operation on the 2 foot 6 inch gauge W&L is a better option. Even trams in museums have been regauged, as with the Glasgow 4 foot 7 and threequarters of an inch gauge changed to four foot eight and a half inches at Crich. Not much, admittedly, but still inauthentic to the nit-pickers. Hardly ‘butchering’.

  3. Christopher Callan says:

    Yet to see anyone present viable alternative for these six horse trams to remain as is. Its clear the onus is those bemoaning the decision to make the case instead some seem more inclined to pick arguments with folk trying to be realistic & ramp up the rhetoric and language often under pseudonym. Nobody in their wildest dreams surely expects the Horse Tramway to ever need as many as it has again. If the Island was close to my heart id be thanking my lucky stars Ian Longworth as Director of Public Transport. Seems an enthusiast with brain whose track record on and off the island in terms of preservation & heritage very impressive. Just needs to keep council and other stakeholders on board and develop operation and ensure its has a sustainable long term future moving forward. I keep hearing the comparison between this operation and Blackpool to me they very very different in terms of structure and operation to me the obvious parallel that seems to be missed is the need for those who want it to simply support it. That means riding, financially contributing to appeals, promoting events, promoting operation and generally been helpful positive voice for the areas as a whole.

  4. TONY PACKWOOD says:

    Mmmmm. Car 46 passed to Wirral Borough Council over 25 years ago, was beautifully restored (I prepared the cost estimates) was displayed for some time at Birkenhead Woodside for some time before being disposed of to the Group restoring the Edinburgh Horse Tram for the wheelsets. I presume the body was broken up.

  5. Raymond Luxury-Yacht says:

    I would be very surprised if the W&LLR would be able to use a horse tram as a carriage without some pretty serious underframe modifications. Trams just aren’t built to cope with the strain of having a loco pulling from one end and any number of heavy carriages hanging off the other.

  6. Gareth Prior says:

    It was always going to be an emotive subject offering some of the trams for sale but if you take the emotion out of it what other option is there really? As things stand at the moment a normal day on the tramway sees a maximum of 3 trams running in service at any one time and the rumoured 11 trams for retention will more than cover the requirements for the foreseeable future (there may be an argument for retaining an extra Winter Saloon but as it is always sunny on the Isle of Man is it really necessary :-)). The service frequency on the tramway will always be dependent on the number of horses available – I’m sure when there were very frequent services along the Prom the welfare of the horses was not as high priority as it is today.

    These six trams are all stored at the back of a building which desperately needs replacement and if individuals and organisations can find a use for the trams in whichever form surely that is better than them remaining stored and neglected at the back of the depot? Its not as if it is being suggested that the trams will be scrapped – throughout history trams have been sold on for other uses and it doesn’t necessarily mean the end – how many restored trams we enjoy today became summer houses, sheds, cricket pavilions etc. for a period? And if we’re saying its an outrage that they may be rebuilt and regauged does that mean we should all be angry at Seaton for the rebuilding of trams from London, Bournemouth and Exeter?

    Sometimes there does need to be a little bit of realism from enthusiasts as to what can be achieved and if the selling of these trams helps to secure the future of the tramway then what is wrong with that?

  7. Franklyn says:

    This is yet another example (Blackpool being the other) where important historic artifacts look set to be sold off to the highest bidder, with little or no thought for their preservation for future generations. These trams are irreplaceable, partly because the skills to construct them have been largely lost and partly because increasing legislation may prohibit vehicles of the same type being built new in the future.

    Blackpool now seems to be regretting disposing of it’s fleet, having worked hard to bring some of them home again to join their excellent heritage operation. I said at the time of the so-called ‘upgrade’ that the Blackpool tramway should have been preserved in it’s entirety as some kind of historic national monument, much like the historic cable cars of San Francisco, which still get rebuilt, but retain their original charm and character while providing a heavily trafficked public service. In Blackpool this golden opportunity was missed, mainly due to a lack of foresight by the local council who have never seemed to understand what heritage is all about.

    The Isle of Mann is even more of a special case because so much of it’s heritage transport system still survives. This makes it a huge asset, not only as a form of public transport, but also for tourism. If you want a ride on an old tram, why go to a museum that shuts it’s doors at 5pm and gives you a 5 minute ride when you can have a trip to Mann and experience the history for real?

    Any removal of any of the heritage assets from the Isle of Mann, is an extremely short-sighted idea indeed. And by ‘heritage assets’ I don’t just mean the trams, but also the buildings and other infrastructure, much of which has already been quietly destroyed in recent years.

    Finally… do they have listed structures on the island like we do on the UK mainland? I spoke to English Heritage last year about potentially listing some gas lamp posts in Sheffield. They were very helpful and explained that listing was most likely to be given to any unique items that were still in their original condition and being used for their original purpose in theor original place. Well, you can’t get more original or unique than the Douglas hose tramway!

    • Chris says:

      Whilst I would have loved the Tramway to stay as it was in the glory days I don’t think the current volume of passengers would agree. It was upgrade or lose. It never made any money towards the end and just keeping it would have killed it.

    • Nigel Pennick says:

      Unfortunately the tramway in Douglas is in no way as famous and valued as the San Francisco cable cars, and in the 1950s was touch and go whether the cable cars there would be scrapped. The standard song ‘I Left My Heart in San Francisco’ features the cable cars that “climb halfway to the stars”, but, sadly, Douglas has no comparable popular song to fly the flag for the horse trams.

  8. Gareth Prior says:

    In all the debate I haven’t yet seen anyone who thinks it is outrageous that the trams are being offered for sale offering an alternative. There are some who say they will campaign to make sure nothing leaves the island, so presumably even if a preservation organisation on the mainland comes up with a good plan to preserve a tram there will be a campaign against it. Surely it is better for a good preservation plan off the island than the tram sitting at the back of a life expired depot (open to the elements at the back) continuing to degrade until it is too late to do anything about it? Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face!

    Until the auction takes place and we find out details of who has purchased the trams we won’t actually know what is going to happen and all these fears may be unfounded.

    But my question remains to all those who don’t like the auction – what is the alternative? And don’t say they can be restored for use on the tramway as it should be obvious to anyone with even a passing interest in the operations that there are already plenty of trams available for use.

    • Ken Walker says:

      You could say that campaigning against trams being restored off rhe island is in effect campaigning for them to be scrapped on the island, as there is probably no third alternative. What has happened with the ones that were taken to Jurby by the way, are they still rotting away?

    • Phil Caine says:

      and my question to you is why can’t the trams stay where they are ? You obviously have little understanding of the Manx political set up, like most on the adjacent isle ?

      • Ken Walker says:

        Perhaps you should address that question to the people who have decided to sell them off. It has been made quite clear that the status quo of leaving them to rot away at the back of the depot is not going to continue and the corporation are going to get rid of them by one means or another.
        My understanding of the ones kept on the island at Jurby – which has to remain an understanding as my attempt to get to the museum was thwarted when the advertised bus failed to show – is that they are just deteriorating in open storage, so keeping stored trams on the island doesn’t seem to be bringing any benefit to them.
        I don’t think a detailed ‘understanding of the Manx political setup’ is required in order to draw these commonsense conclusions.

      • Geoff, Isle of Man says:

        Phil, please (re-)read Gareth’s comments of the 17th and 19th and Chris’s of the 21st. The “Manx political set-up” (a seriously flawed artefact, anyway) is not really the issue here: it is simply a case of too many vehicles for the anticipated traffic levels and for the storage space available in the renovated depot. To make a sweeping condemnation of Ken Walker’s opinions does little to further the debate.

  9. David Mee says:

    Yes, cars 11 and 47 are still at Jurby and although the yard at the rear of the Transport Museum has been cleared up considerably they are still in open storage and they are still deteriorating.

    Perhaps those suggesting that the Horse Cars should stay on the island at all costs should reflect on the fate of these vehicles, which despite Car 11 being a rare Starbuck C&W Co survivor from 1886 isn’t even deemed worthy of protection by a tarpaulin.

    However, this does not mean that transfer to the UK or elsewhere might be the saviour of these vehicles, as mentioned by a previous contributor you only have to look at the fate of Car 46 to see that might not be the case.

    However, being realistic, the status quo is not the answer, something needs to be done with these surplus vehicles and I am optimistic that the approach favoured by the Corporation in vetting potential purchasers will result in the best possible outcome for the cars.

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